We have with us on our panel Advocate Radharao Gracias, Kamat (OSD to the NRI commissioner), Advocate Cleofato Coutinho (Social Activist), Ramakant Kalap (former Law Minister of India, and Deputy CM of Goa), Armando Gonsalves (Goa for Giving- charity).

Herald: Before we go into detail of what is going on in Britain at this point of time the biggest issue here is the fear that Goans will lose their Indian citizenship even if they register their birth in Portugal. Let’s talk about the fear and legalities of it.

Armando: As per the reports we have heard in the media, around 4 lakh people have registered their births in Portugal. Obviously it’s a thing to worry, a lot of my friends are in the same situation. In a liberalised atmosphere across the world, I feel that the Govt of India should have taken this up. It’s not only the Goan diaspora which is abroad. There so many Punjabis and Gujaratis who are also abroad. The Govt could have taken a much more liberal view and said that ‘let’s throw this open and lets have dual citizenship like so many other countries have.’

Herald: Khalap, taking off from where Armando has left, if you could focus on the legality of it taking the historical context and the current citizenship.

Ramakant: We all know that we are a part of Portugal; they called us the overseas province of Portugal. Now after liberation the situation continued because the Portuguese did not accept Goa and Daman and Diu to be a part of India until a treaty was signed in 1974 where Portugal in categorical terms said that from the day the liberation took place Goa and Daman and Diu have become a part of India. Now if you are an Indian you can’t hold any other citizenship. Article 9 of the Constitution clearly says that if any Indian voluntarily gives up its citizenship that he loses his Indian citizenship. Portugal, in 1975, when they made the new law they created a friction that any person who was born in the erstwhile Portuguese provinces - Goa, Daman and Diu -- and their next two generations would be accepted as the citizens of Portugal. Their only condition was to prove that they were born in Portuguese Goa through their birth, death or marriage certificates. This was the only evidence they required. In my opinion what has been happening is we all know people have been travelling from one place to another for better prospects, older generations have done it. This was an opportunity for Goans, so naturally since there were better paying jobs in England and it became so easy to reach there, Goans grabbed this opportunity.

Cleofato: One part missed is the 2006 organic clock in 1975 was they gave the registration of birth, in which they brought a law which said that if you register then you would get citizenship.

Herald: Now the issue is there was one situation from 1961 to 2006 and from 2006 it was further firmed up. The thing is from 1961 to now the govt of India has either turned a blind eye to it or not been bothered about it. The whole issue of two identities whether we like it or not remained. Goans took advantage of these two identities and no one really had a problem. None of the Congress Chief Ministers have made an issue of this since Congress has ruled most of the time in Goa. It is only now that this issue is coming up. The point here is that is it fair that for so many years the state here and the union government have not made an issue out of this. So if Goans have taken up this opportunity why should they be punished? You can’t turn a person’s life suddenly after 50 years after being silent.

Cleofato: See there are two ways of looking at it. This 2006 law which gave citizenship was not known in this country till Churchill filed a petition against Caitu. So we can give a benefit of doubt to those people to say that they did not know what they were doing. See the situation now, Caitu's case happened in 2012. Three years down the line queues before the embassy are getting longer and longer. So now according to me people know what they are doing and are still going for that registration even when they know the consequences but the point which you are raising about what the govt is doing about it had come into focus in the year 1999-2000 not in connection with Goa but mainly in connection with Punjabis, Gujaratis after the new economic reforms because India was prospering and they wanted to come back to India and that is when they wanted the concept of dual citizenship to come into play. At that time the govt clearly took a stand that they would not go for dual citizenship. I have another issue.  The dual citizenship for us in this geopolitical situation in which we are in, it will never be possible for India to grant Dual citizenship. 

Herald: Kamat, going back to the point of what the govt has done, has this come up in discussions within the govt, NRI cell because at the end of the day people went ahead since there was no objection. We all know what’s going on in Goa. People are holding Indian passports and are having BIs and CCs and are travelling everywhere. There are a lot of Govt servants who take long leaves and go abroad to work. 

Kamat: For the first time in 2014 we took up this matter to the Prime Minister, and later we had a meeting with the Home Minister. The stand that the govt of Goa has taken is that mere registration or transcribing the birth in Lisbon cannot amount to the loss of Indian citizenship unless the person has opted for Portuguese passport. So this is the clear stand that the Govt has taken.

Herald: The Chief Ministers exact quote on this issue "there is no provision in the constitution for dual citizenship, no exception for Goa as well. The proposed dual citizenship Central authority in the state might be able to assist those who have merely registered their birth in Lisbon. As a citizen aspires and want to secure their Indian nationality along with their citizenship rights is not certain what can be done to protect the citizenship?

Radharao: See I beg to differ with what my colleagues Khalap and Cleofato have said and I also beg to differ with what I have been saying earlier. I believe in the way the Indian law exists, Goa is the only part of the republic which has dual citizenship under our constitution. We became citizens by the virtue of the citizen order in 1962 which says that all those who were born in the territories of Goa, Daman and Diu are deemed to be Indian nationals. This law does not terminate our Portuguese nationality. The fact is prior to December 19, 1960 we had the Portuguese citizenship and Portugal has not even terminated it. Therefore as far as I am concerned the Govt on India confers citizenship on us without termination our Portuguese nationality. What the Govt of India is saying is that if you acquire any other citizenship you lose yours. So my point is, if at the beginning you have a dual citizenship have you terminated my Portuguese nationality?

Khalap: On December 13, 1974, there was treaty signed between India and Portugal stating that from December 19, 1961 Goa along with Daman and Diu became a part of India. As a result of this India and Portugal accepted that all Goans except those who under that Portaria could opt within one month’s time as to what nationality they wanted to belong; became Indian citizen or get Portuguese nationality. Now once you are an Indian citizen you continue to be a citizen of India only according to our Constitution.

Radharao: Under the treaty of 1974 Portugal recognises the sovereignty of India over Goa, but under the Portuguese law dual citizenship is permitted. A Portuguese person can be a citizen of Brazil or of England or of any other country likewise they do not have any problem if their citizen holds an Indian citizenship.

Herald: We have spoken about people who were born before 1961. The problem does not lie there, the problem lies with children born in the 70's, 80's, the issue is here. What is happening now is that parents who had not registered their births are doing it now so that their children can benefit. Don’t you think this whole turmoil kind off either would jeopardize or put at risk aspirants who want to go there for a better life?

Armando: My own son was interested to make a Portuguese passport to which I said no. Aspiration is very deep and people are extremely worried about it, so yes it is definitely a problem.

Herald: Do you think if this is the stand the govt finally takes that your registration, not your passport is tantamount to your Indian citizenship getting terminated?

Khalap: I describe this entire thing as Caitu syndrome holding him as the icon of the entire confusion. This is become a very dicey issue now whether registration is itself sufficient to say you are a citizen. The Portuguese law says if you are born there and if you have a proof of registration you are our citizen. Our people if they are getting a good job they will see that first. The moment they go there after registration they get an identification certificate they obtain travel documents. Suppose they are not going to the UK they are going to the US then they will take a Portuguese passport. This is a voluntary act. We should warn Goans that the repercussions of such a move will be that you will lose your Indian citizenship.

Cleofato: If you say that people who are registering their birth do not lose their citizenship, I feel that no one will register their birth if they are told you register but do not take the passport. I don’t think there is anybody who is registering for the sake it. Everybody who is doing it is to either take a passport or so that their children can benefit in the future. 

Herald: There are so many prominent people including former ministers, MLAs who have their CCs. They have not taken their passport, they are mainly using it to land in Dubai or some other place and then they are moving into the European card document.

Cleofato: The whole problem is they have not been tested.

Kamat: The grant of OCI card status has actually encouraged people to take the passport. With OCI you are placed in par with NRIs who are Indian citizens, you get everything from your Aadhar card, gas connection, driving licence; you can purchase any property. The only restriction is you cannot take up a govt job, you cannot vote in elections, you cannot contest elections.

Radharao: We are lawfully holding Portuguese nationality that’s according to me. I would place those who are registering their birth assuming that my version of dual nationality is incorrect. I would place those who are registering their births in Portugal at the same level as the chairman of reserve bank Raghuram Rajan. You see those who are holding American green cards are three-quarter American citizens. If Rajan can come here and become the chairman of the Reserve Bank I see no reason why those who are registered in Portugal are facing this issue. If you are permitting those who have a green card why not also allow those who are registered in Portugal with Indian passports?

Cleofato: USA does not say holding a green card you get citizenship.

Radharao:  Holding a green card is a step towards getting a citizenship. As far as this issue is concerned I’m not talking about the OCI card, assuming that dual citizenship is not permitted why do you want to terminate the Indian citizenship. The govt of India is not terminating the citizenships of those who are talking green cards.

Herald: To get a green card, it’s not so easy, you need to live in USA for a certain number of years and contribute to their economy. The problem here is the people who are registering themselves under the Portuguese law don’t even step into Portugal, they go to England. 

Radharao: What I’m trying to say is if you give a green card to an Indian in America he accepts America for all purposes but we still give them Indian citizenship so therefore if there are people who have registered in Portugal and if mere registration amounts to loss of citizenship they could always treat it like a green card.

Herald: People, who are already in England, are definitely going to get confused and troubled. The issue is again twofold and is coming up at this time also because of elections which are round the corner, as most of you all rightly said the impact will be felt if their names are struck off from the voters’ list and the whole demographic situation is going to change. Is there any suspicion? If you look at it from a political point of view don’t you think this could also be a move to just wipe off the electoral roles of let’s say Catholics so that the whole demographics can be completely change?

ARMANDO: I have absolutely no doubt about that. The government’s move is precisely for that. What the bigger game there would be is that we are now minority on land. You wipe off 3 to 4 lakh numbers out of which most of them being Catholics, then we are going to drop to more than 40 per cent.

Khalap: To a certain extent I do agree with that. Around 2000 names have already been stuck off the voter’s register. These people who are there ruling today may just put up their hands and say we are not doing it. It’s happening because of constitutional provisions. This is fair enough of them to say. But the situation is this, till the date the govt of India moves ahead, amends the constitution, makes certain provisions till then Goa will be threatened with a situation whereby sizable section of Goans, whether Catholics or Hindus, Goa will lose Goans and that is going to be a situation when Goan is going to be doomed.

CLEOFATO: This problem could be sorted out. You don’t really need to change the Constitution. Even under the OCI card if the scheme is framed in such a manner that you can vote for elections but you cannot contest elections. And also as Radharao said to hold civil posts should be allowed.

Herald: Coming to the moot point. Is leaving the land for migration make you a less of a passionate patriot or not?

Khalap: Three years back a group of singers came to Goa, they called themselves Portugoeses which means Goans who have become Portuguese. They were so passionate about Goan music. Why did they do it? Because deep in their hearts they have a desire of belonging.

Herald: Should patriotism be restricted to Facebook or we see it on the ground.

Radharao: See there is a group in America called Goa Sudarop, I know this group personally. They sponsor a lot of money to people who do good work. Another advantage of dual nationality would be this. Take for example football, the standard of soccer in Goa is very poor. Goans are at the bottom end even though they are very good. Having dual citizenship can help us come up in various fields, specially sports.

Herald: We see so many people going abroad, there is a huge exodus we need to get Goans back. Even if you want to get them back what do they come back for?

Kamat: There is a scheme within the Department of Industry and Commerce, which is dedicated to NRIs. NRIs who want to invest into eco friendly industries are welcome. EDC gives them a lot of facilities but there is hardly any response.

Cleofato: There is no response because we are not seen as an investment destination. And that is where we are failing. See we have five engineering colleges but Goa does not have the potential to absorb them. We are not seen as a land of opportunities. We are only talking about this at a Goan level but this is happening at the higher level too.

Herald: One last segment, the issue is that if Britain is no longer with Europe, will that force Goans to come back to Goa or move to other parts of Europe?

Armando: They don’t have to come back at all, people who are in the process will not be allowed to enter unless they earn 36000 pounds a year which is the limitation which exists across for Indians as well as Europeans.

Ramakant: If England goes out of the European Union they are no more a part of that entire system so the Portuguese people will need their travel documents. These Portuguese citizens who were there in England a time will come when they will have to show their passport and their visa.

 

Herald: What else do you think you can do to get people back?

Kamat: It all depends if they want to come back.