Herald: This debate is on the future of Goans in Britain post June 23, when there is going to be a referendum to figure out if Britain is going to be a part of the European Union or not. Normally news like this wouldn’t have affected people in Goa, but it has because of the 20,000 plus Goans with Portuguese passports who happen to live in England, mainly in the little town of Swindon, which is now known as mini-Goa. The fate of many Goans is certainly on tenterhooks because once Britain decides one way or the other, it is going to affect the future of Goans. If Britain decides not to be a part of the EU, then you just can’t walk into England with a Portuguese passport and avail of state, health and education benefits. You will need a permit to enter, work, stay and live. If Britain does decide to remain a part of the EU, even then the party will be over because you will need to build up your stay and contribution to England before you get all your benefits, and it will happen over five years. What is also important to note is the number of people going from India to London, after making a stopover at the Portuguese consulate, is growing by the day.
Herald: Alexandre, how will June 23 affect Goans?
Barbosa: Rather it will affect Goans who have Portuguese passports and are travelling to Britain. One thing I’m not sure of is how the Goans who are already in Britain will be affected. But those who are planning to migrate to England with a Portuguese passport after June 23 will definitely be affected because Britain would close down its doors for easy migration. They would have to become British residents which will take up quite some time. That is if Britain exits the EU. Even if it does not exit the EU, they are going to have problems. British PM David Cameron has worked out a deal with the EU by which he will limit the work benefits for EU immigrants in the first four years after the Brexit if Britain decides to stay with the EU. Both ways, Goans with Portuguese passports going into Britain are going to face problems.
Herald: Radharao, irrespective of which way the cookie crumbles, life will not be the same. Is that going to be a good thing or a bad thing?
Gracias: Goans are not new to this sort of travelling. Goans were the first people from the Indian sub-continent to start migrating and working abroad because of our westernised ways of life. We have found it quite easy to accommodate ourselves, adapt ourselves to any foreign culture. That’s why you find Goans all over the world. No matter what the outcome of the referendum, Goans will continue to go abroad. They are not going because the British doors are open. They are going because they feel unwanted here. That is the major reason they’re going. If the doors in Britain close, doors elsewhere in Europe will be open.
Herald: But won’t language be an issue? People go to Britain primarily because of the language.
Gracias: Goans rush to London because we’re familiar with the language. Some of them don’t even know English. The thing is Goans can adapt anywhere in the world. They can easily work in Europe. It’s not that they only go to England. I know there are thriving Goan communities from Siridao and Goa Velha in France. The next generation learns French. I don’t believe it will much affect Goans, except those going to England. Another misconception is that Goans are going to England because of the benefits. Certainly not. They are going to work. They are willing to work hard, as Goans are always willing to work.
Herald: Armando, don’t you think there’s a flip-side to it? My only difference is that there are a lot of unmarried males going there to work. Maybe married males are going there to work without their families. Statistics show that over the last one-and-a-half years, people who are moving there are going there with families. Or people who moved there earlier as single people are getting their families over, primarily because of the benefits the state gives. Don’t you think Goans are taking advantage of the situation?
Gonsalves: I will partially agree with Radharao, but you are also right. People are breaking the system in Europe. Even if you work less than 20 hours a week in England, you have benefits of accommodation and rental support. So people are breaking into that and using the system. Of course, we Goans have been very good people and have done great things abroad, but the newer groups that are going there have moved in a different direction as well. It’s a half-and-half there.
Herald: Tell us a little about life in the UK for Goans. What about the majority of the people who are moving there from Goa?
Gonsalves: I have friends who have moved there a couple of years back. I was quite surprised that things can be quite tough there. I know a couple of unmarried girls who have gone there, who have stayed in places where you have eight to a dwelling. They have just one toilet and bath facility shared among women as well as men. I was quite surprised because the girls who I know have done well in Goa, but they’ve quit their jobs and gone there and this is what they’ve landed in. I heard of occasions where these girls actually cried. It’s not all that hunky-dory.
Herald: Don’t you think it’s also affecting life and the social structure in Goa? With the majority of the people, especially Catholics, moving out, doesn’t it affect the social and the political equation?
Gracias: Certainly. Goan Catholics seem to be taking the Bible very seriously. The Lord said go forth and multiply, so we are multiplying and going. This is what is happening. Us Goans tend to go abroad and then blame others from coming here. The influx of outsiders into Goa is a direct consequence of Goans going out. All of us today are disturbed about the fact that we are becoming marginalised. We are disturbed by that fact on HCN, the anchor is someone called Gupta, rather than a Naik or Gracias. But it’s happening because we’re migrating. There is much that can be done. People are running away for economic reasons. When it’s a matter of economics, I don’t see how you can stop people from going where the grass is greener.
Gonsalves: I wonder if it’s only economics. How much are they earning there? At the end of the day, generally people earn 6.5 pounds an hour. Even if they work 40 hours a week, which is the rule there, you’re only earning about Rs 1.20 lakh.
Herald: But will you make that money in Goa?
Gonsalves: That’s where things go wrong. But at what cost? You’ve ghettoised yourself for a whole generation with the hope that the next generation might do well because of better education facilities. There is also a feeling, especially amongst the minorities, that India may not really be welcoming them. There is also a fear psychosis. I could sense that when I was in England myself. Small businesses can make more money here.
Herald: Alexandre, don’t you think this is happening because Goa is increasingly giving less and less to its people? Jobs don’t come easy, people asks for bribes to get jobs, government jobs are an issue, the education system is not leading to employment. Aren’t all these factors? People feel that it is easier to go to England than to Bombay and Bangalore.
Barbosa: All those are factors and they will continue to be. Here in Goa we keep opposing everything that comes up. But the economic factor is the main reason finally. People are not going there because they want to live in the ghettos or in squalor. What happens after June 23? Will they go to Portugal? They will not go because the Portuguese economy is bad. After June 23, some other country is going to have this same problem of getting a flood of Goans. If they were earning here maybe Rs 5,000 or Rs 10,000 per month, there they are earning around Rs 1 lakh per month. It is a huge sum. The sacrifice is there, but it has always been there for the people who go onto boats and stay at sea for months away from their families. They’ve been doing that for generations. There is a set of Goans who have been going abroad for generations and working in some very difficult situations and sending money back home. That will surely continue to some extent.
Herald: Coming back to the large question of whether these Portuguese passport benefits to Goans should stop or not. That discussion has begun and it’s peaked. People are saying it’s over and done with; many years have already passed since Goa was integrated into India. Portugal does not give that facility to any other colony of theirs. Of course, all along people have said Goa was never a colony but a part of the Portuguese nation. After so many years, don’t you think a time has come to stop giving Portuguese passports to the third generation?
Barbosa: That will stop, because they are giving to one generation and two more after that. If the last two generations have not taken the opportunity to make a Portuguese passport, the fourth generation is not going to get it. So at some point it will stop.
Herald: Radharao, even if that time comes, we’re looking at another 15 or 20 years. Should there be a mid-term course correction?
Gracias: The Portuguese are not concerned with what Goans do. In their law, there is a provision that we are taking advantage of. For some reason, the Portuguese felt that certain types of people should be accommodated or given the benefits of Portuguese nationality. To put it the other way round, as far as Portugal is concerned, they did not grant Goa independence or concede it to India. Goa was taken back by force. In view of those circumstances, the Portuguese have some consideration for Goans and that is why they have given this concession. Today Portugal has a Prime Minister whose father is from Goa. The Portuguese are not racially conscious as other Europeans.
Herald: From the Indian point of view, doesn’t it amount to some kind of a disparity where the rest of the country is treated differently and people from Goa have an advantage?
Gracias: It has been different because we have been treated differently. The whole world comes to Goa because we are different. If it was not for the Portuguese interlude here, there would be no Goa. Goa would just be an extension of the coast from Malwan to Karwar. It was the Portuguese presence that makes Goa. You can’t dispute that aspect. There would be Gomantak here. There would be no Goa.
Herald: Armando, what are your points on the same issue? Should this continue or stop? In almost every government department, there are people who are misusing it. There are people who are not surrendering their Indian passports, taking leave of absence, going to England for two or three years, not contributing to the government and coming back here an resuming their jobs.
Gonsalves: The government of India should be strict about this. Exemplary punishment should be given to people of this ilk. If they cannot do that, I guess it’s because there are people in the legislature who have Portuguese passports.
Barbosa: But rather than asking the Portuguese to stop it, the Indian Government is the one that should do it.
Herald: But can they do it? The legal aspect comes in. If there is a law of this nature, can the Government of India step in and prevail upon Portugal to stop it?
Gracias: There can always be a request from government to government. But I don’t see how the Government of India can interfere in the Portuguese law as much as they can’t interfere in our law here. If they have given freedom to our people, it is for us to choose. If we are choosing Portugal over India, that means something is wrong here. No person would give up their own homeland to go elsewhere unless there is something wrong here. The Government has to find out what is wrong and then rectify it.
Barbosa: But this misuse, where people have a Portuguese passport but still retain their Indian passport, that’s where the Indian government has to step in. Secondly, they have still not decided whether just registration of birth in Portugal means that you have Portuguese citizenship. If they have taken four years to address this question, I don’t think they will go beyond that.
Herald: It is extremely important to know this because it will play out in 2017. There are so many people who are taking Portuguese passports and moving out. Some of them have their names in the electoral roll, which should be struck off. And if that exercise is done properly and their names are culled from the electoral roll, there is going to be a huge slump in votes. It will be fair to assume that a majority of these people will not be BJP supporters. Don’t you think that the BJP will use this to its advantage and ensure the culling happens? And will this actually affect the non-BJP forces, especially taking into account the disgruntlement with the BJP at this time.
Gracias: It is quite possible that the BJP may cull their names. But I don’t think the BJP’s victory at the next elections depends on that. Nobody in Goa is going to vote for them. Irrespective of what the BJP does with the electoral role, it may not get elected again. I think the Government of India can intervene and do something, and that is by amending Article 9 of the Constitution. Grant us dual citizenship. If you grant dual citizenship, this issue is dead and gone. Why are you depriving the citizens of benefits that are available to us? It is not causing any harm to us here.
Herald: But it will be in the BJP’s interest to see that these names are struck off the roles, don’t you think?
Gracias: Not necessarily. There are more Gujaratis and Punjabis abroad than Goans, and they are all BJP supporters. It is in the interest of the BJP to amend the law to accommodate dual citizenship.
Gonsalves: Goa is a very small place. The only thing that BJP might think is that Goa is a liberal hotspot. It’s about liberalism. That is what the BJP is worried about.
Herald: Alexandre, don’t you think this is affecting the demographics of Goa and the whole socio-political situation?
Barbosa: It has definitely changed. If you see our first election in 1963, Bandodkar was the second non-Congress chief minister in India. India had the first election in 1952. Goa voted for the regional parties till 1980. After that it jumped to the national parties. First it was the Congress and later it became the Congress and BJP. Our voting patterns have definitely changed. That is probably because of our demographics. That is still happening. A regional party today gets two or three seats. That’s not because it is a regional party but more because of the candidate. It is the personality that is getting the votes rather than the party. We have discarded the regional parties and are looking at national parties and that is because of the migration into Goa.
Gracias: Rightly so. The influx of outsiders is so much that almost every constituency is now influenced by these people. For all that matters, neither Parrikar nor Digambar Kamat have their roots in Goa. They had settled here during the Portuguese time. These people who are coming here have now achieved political power and are becoming the majority. If you had come a generation earlier, you become a Goan. The one who comes yesterday is a non-Goan.
Herald: Armando, don’t you think the whole love for the land, need to protect and fight against forces that are destroying Goa to an extent, is getting weaker as more Goans are moving out?
Gonsalves: That would be answered very clearly with a personality like Claude Alvares, who’s not even a Goan. If Goa has a remnant of Goanness left, it’s because of Claude. I don’t think it should really be a problem. It is about how we inculcate that love, how do social organisations work at this level, how does the government encourage people to remain here and feel that Goenkarponn. Unfortunately, this is not happening here. That’s where the government is failing.
Herald: We don’t know what’s going to happen post June 23. Maybe life will change a little bit. I think the biggest take away from this discussion is that we here in India need to introspect and try and give a better life and livelihoods to our citizens. People don’t always go because they love India less, but the grass is greener.
