Herald: We have a very special guest all the way from Greece. He is the former Prime Minister George Papandreou, who was at the helm of affairs between 2009 and 2011. He was here to speak for the D D Kosambi Festival of Ideas and he is yet another addition to a long list of eminent speakers who’ve spoken at this festival. His speech really touched a lot of hearts. He spoke about the value of democracy, socialism, about people’s participation. We’ll ask him to dwell a little bit on his speech and other issues that he deals with.
Herald: If you could just tell us how you got to know of this festival, did you come to know of Goa for the first time because of this festival, and how has been your visit so far?
George Papandreou: Of course, Goa is well-known as a popular spot in the world and in India, but I had never visited. I’m privileged to have been invited for the festival. I think it’s a very important one, not only because of the people who speak here, but also the wide participation from the people. It is an important bridge because as we are growing and globalizing our economy, we need to globalize our thinking and our ideas, and exchange much more about the problems we are facing. What I find very often is the problems we have may be in different proportions, but the type of issues we are dealing with – like governance, inequality, climate change – are global problems that affect us all. We have similar problems, and therefore, our ideas are not foreign to each other. They may be innovative to come from different parts of the world. I commend what you are doing here. Secondly, it’s such a beautiful spot. I also come from a country by the sea, so I feel very comfortable here. I also organize a small symposium in Greece around ideas and have had Indian participation. I think this combination of arts and politics and ideas and culture is a very conducive atmosphere for thinking and creativity.
Herald: What section of your speech yesterday did you feel was very close to concerns of India or Goa? In your entire talk, are there any portions which you feel are relevant to the local situation?
Papandreou: I don’t want to say that I am an expert in the political situation in India or Goa, but I feel we are dealing with issues of good governance, which respects the rights of everyone, and that we have to move away from the deepening equalities even if we become richer and India has become richer. Greece, despite its austerity, has lost quite a large part of its GDP. Still, compared to 30 or 40 years ago, it is a much richer country. But equalities, disparities and injustices seem to have become more prevalent around the globe. I think more and more citizens are saying that they want basic rights, whether its education, health or some sort of welfare.
Herald: Do you think there’s universal narrative?
Papandreou: I think there’s a universal narrative. We have the capacity, the wealth, the know-how, technology, knowledge. Never before has humanity had so many resources.
Herald: But yet democracy gets continuously threatened by corruption and privileges being centered around a few, and the common man getting pushed out of the system.
Papandreou: We’re not only talking about a fight for democracy in an authoritarian regime, but even in developed democracies, mature democracies. We see that the system is often being captured by big businesses, wealth and strength of the lobbies. We need to deepen democracy to give the people more of a voice, more participation and more strength. They can be empowered for making decision for society.
Herald: There are a lot of similarities between Greece and Goa in terms of topography, climate and the fact that both are close to the sea and tourism is a big part of both these places. A lot of people from all over the world go to Greece. What is the way forward in ensuring that the right kinds of tourists come into a particular country? Do we need to follow the principle of big hotels and convention centres? What did you do to make sure people saw more of Greece?
Papandreou: I think it’s a very good point you make. Greece is a very diverse country. You can see many islands that follow the mass tourism concept. That brings some wealth at some point, but it also brings a crisis. It’s not a sustainable model. When people go somewhere, they actually want a new experience. They want an added value. The best way to have that added value is to highlight your own comparative advantages, your culture, and your way of life. If we adopt a uniform type of commercialization concept of tourism, then you will not attract the kind of tourists the industry would want. Sustainability; the beauty of this area needs to be highlighted and preserved and as an asset for tourism.
Herald: The environment is something very big and you’re extremely concerned about global warming, what’s happening to our cities, pollution, etc. Obviously, that’s a very strong narrative. How do you make this narrative more global? How do you make countries like India buy into that in a more genuine way?
Papandreou: It’s in the interest of the poor and rich that the countries and cities are sustainable. You have this idea about smart cities; I would say its sustainable cities, where people can participate. You could have good quality of life, good health services, good communication services, where people feel they are part of the city life. Otherwise you will be marginalizing a big part of the city.
Herald: A smart city is not just about funds coming in and being spent. It’s about including people. Do you have sustainable cities in Greece?
Papandreou: We also have problems with our cities. Athens, for example, grew on a model in the 60’s of people having properties and then building high-rises, which they would then sell off. So we ended up expending too much cement throughout Athens and that has made the city more difficult. We had pollution. Slowly we started to create public services, public transport. We have that odd-even plan. We were able to reduce pollution quite a bit and make Athens much healthier and cleaner. That’s very important for health and the general climate in our cities. There’s another issue which many cities will have. As we are building cities, they are not insulated in the right way. We use a lot of air-conditioning in the summer, which costs a lot and even increases the temperature of the heat that is generated. IN Greece, unluckily, we are a warm country, but are houses are spending four times the energy than houses in Sweden or Finland. These are areas where we can have huge savings in energy and also help deal with climate change. I would add to this that we need to work globally. Now India is talking much more about sustainable renewables. I’ve talked to Indian businessmen and they happen to be much more interested in investing in alternative and green energy. It also allows for local communities to be more self-sustained and independent. There’s a bit of a democracy element there. The more you’re dependent on imports or oil or big nuclear facilities, the more you are dependent politically. This is very important for a decentralizing participatory type of society. We have been putting stress on sustainable development as a type of growth which is better for our citizens. We’ve always fought inequality as democratic socialists. Climate change first hits the poor. It hits them the hardest and the worst, and of course, the middle class too. There are issues of inequality there as well. We should have education and good health services. We should provide a sustainable environment for our citizens.
Herald: When we talk of exchanges between India and other countries of the world, whether they’re economic exchanges, cultural exchanges, Greece doesn’t seem to be in the top five countries where India is reaching out to and vice versa. SO much of what you told me briefly could be replicated into proper exchanges. For instance: having sister cities. Panjim can be a sister city with any small town in Greece. India often looks further west and doesn’t look at Greece. Probably the fault, if I may use that word, lies with both sides. What can be done to ensure that the Indo-Greek gets strengthened?
Papandreou: First of all, I love India. It’s a beautiful country. You are the largest democracy; we are the birthplace of democracy. That is important to highlight in this time when people are looking for forms of governance, and there are competing forms of governance. We need to highlight our democracy. I would want to see this as a global value. India, being a global player, is very important. It’s moving up in the world because of its wealth, technology and impact. We would like to see India as a global player in many areas. Secondly, we have cultural ties from ancient times. In modern times we have been influence by Indian music, maybe Bollywood. There is a lot of tourism that could be developed. I know there are Indian businessmen who would like to invest or come to Greece. We have beautiful islands, beaches and culture. We are also grappling with how we develop tourism in a way which is sustainable. But I have seen that slowly there has been more and more interest. These are things we can develop much more. As more Indians are looking for destinations, I would say, yes please, you will find that we are very warm and hospitable.
