Herald: Hello and welcome to an issue that has made our society completely sick and diseased – the issue of corruption. As we battle a major case that has befallen our State, called the JICA case, where a former Chief Minister and a Minister are in the dock and have been called for questioning. This leads us to a far more serious topic of corruption in society, a nexus between politicians and businessmen, corporate houses, and essentially, a larger aspect of corruption where everybody from the government to big companies and the people themselves. Irrespective of the fight that we have against corruption, let us accept that Goan society has certain black marks that need to be addressed if we need to address the issue of corruption. It is not just politicians, business houses and powerful people with money; it is also us. Our panelists for this discussion are Sunil Kawthankar, a spokesperson of the Congress and a crusader against corruption. Now he has to defend charges of corruption against his own party. Then we have Valmiki Naik, who is the secretary and convenor of the Aam Aadmi Party. AAP can so far take the moral high ground of battling against corruption for the right reasons. They are not yet in power, but they are becoming a force to reckon with. We also have Subhash Phaldessai, an MLA from the BJP.
Herald: Sunil, let’s forget the BJP, Congress and everyone else. Now when people think of Goa, unfortunately, they think of it as a state where deals can be done. Those idyllic days of beaches and tourism are gone. How do you react to this?
Kawthankar: I will not say reject this. It’s a fact that even when we go to other states for functions or official works, the questions we have to face are about this scam, this issue and that issue. Today Goa is getting a very bad name as far as corruption is concerned and we are being identified for that. If anything happens, the news goes on a national level. Even this latest scam which came up has ruined Goa’s name completely.
Herald: Kawthankar, let’s be simplistic. Politicians have stopped caring because it doesn’t matter. Is it because they know that they have a vote bank that will give them the right dividends? Is it because people think that what you do for four or four-and-a-half years don’t matter; what you do for those last six months matters. Ultimately it’s a last six-month home stretch game. You make what you need to make in the first four-and-a-half years and you settle issues in the last six months. Every party does it.
Kawthankar: I think the main reason why Goa is in this condition today is due to the tolerance that Goans have. For example, we say that a politician is a thief, but he also gives us stuff in return. This is very bad. People know that this person is looting the state exchequer or is entering politics solely to make money, but many times people tend to ask for something back. This tolerance is allowing such politicians to be in the system. It is obvious that once these people are in the system, they will pollute the entire system.
Herald: Valmiki, what is the larger holistic solution to this? How do we go forward? We don’t know the disease. What is the treatment?
Naik: Let us define corruption to begin with. To me corruption is where both parties benefit. You scratch me back I scratch yours. If I am a developer and want to build two more floors that I am not allowed to. I pay the TCP or panchayat and get my two floors. He’s happy and I’m happy. That sort of corruption you cannot expose unless one party is dissatisfied or something comes out through documents like in the JICA case. The corruption we see on a normal basis is not corruption. It is extortion. That is the biggest problem here. To follow up on Sunil’s point, I think it is an insult to the intelligence of the Goan voter to say that they are also corrupt. I think they have been made to be corrupt. They do not know what governance without corruption can look like. I lived in the US for ten years. The word bribe or corruption did not enter my dictionary even once. That is what inspires me every day and made me jump into AAP. The biggest responsibility for AAP today is to paint that picture and create that feeling of what it could look like. Once the Goans see that, I think they will never chose BJP, Congress of any other mainstream party again.
Herald: Subhashbab, when the BJP came to power, it did so on the plank of zero-tolerance to corruption. In fact, those were the first words Manohar Parrikar used after being sworn in as CM at the Campal grounds. The Lokayukta was in power for six months and then he went away. There has been no serious attempt to ensure that the position gets filled. Goa has been without the Chief Information Commissioner for quite some time. How do you ultimately fight corruption? Do you fight corruption when the people of the land don’t have to a politician or policeman to file corruption cases. The system provides for a Lokayukta and CICs. Why can’t your government be in a position to empower the people to fight corruption without hoping for it? In three-and-a-half years, these institutions should have been delivered to us.
Phaldessai: I agree to all your points that BJP come into power assuring corruption-free governance. When our regime started, we put in this system of e-tendering all works. We are trying to get away from corruption wherever possible. E-governance. For example, if somebody wants any income or residential certificate, he need not visit everyone’s office. We also brought in the Service Act, which involves delivery of time-bound services.
Herald: Point taken. The fight against corruption is as much symbolic as actual. The Lokayukta is not only symbolic, it is the most potent sign that the government is serious in fighting corruption. You may be doing all other activities that you are supposed to do, but there is an X-factor, where you show that you are better and different than the others. The Lokayukta and CIC are issues that will always come back to haunt you. As MLAs who have come into the party for the first time, we need to know whether there is seriousness in the government. Do you tell the CM that this is becoming a black mark against us? Do you at least admit that this is a failure?
Phaldessai: Yes, we discussed it with the CM and other ministers. Honestly we tried to get the Lokayukta. We advertised the post and filled it also. Unfortunately, certain elements showed black flags. We tried to advertise it again, but we don’t get competent candidates. We appointed the CICs in the same way, but the same thing happened. I do admit that extra efforts have to be made.
Naik: I just want to place on record what AAP Goa has done about the Lokayukta. Just before the 2012 elections, Kejriwal, Sisiodia and others came down to campaign against corruption and that benefit was obtained by the BJP and Manohar Parrikar. They came to power on our anti-corruption wave; there are no two ways about that. That was the election when corruption became a larger issue than communalism and that’s why they got into power. At that time the BJP gave a written promise that Goa would get a Uttarakhand style Lokayukta within 100 days. That is on paper with South Goa MP Narendra Sawaikar’s signature on it. Parrikar showed great propensity to get the Lokayukta functioning, he followed up with the Centre for assent and all those things. When the assent came, we started following up to get an upgrade for the Goa Lokayukta to Uttarakhand style, which had more strength and independence. There was no response from the CM at that time. Prashant Bhushan was a member then. We went with him to meet Parrikar, who just gave us hilarious excuses, such as he did not have competent people to draft a better bill. We called his bluff. Bhushan said he is a Supreme Court lawyer and he would draft the bill. Parrikar agreed. In Feb 2013, AAP handed him in person a ready Lokayukta bill, which was also the strongest in all of the country. If that bill is passed in the current Assembly, BJP’s credibility will reach new heights. But they won’t do that.
Herald: Subhashbab, I don’t know whether you are aware of this offer which AAP has given, but since there is a readymade document, leaving aside political differences, are you willing to sit and at least see what the document is?
Phaldessai: We had a Lokayukta bill that was already ready and drafted. We had different opinions on the functioning of the Lokayukta, but we cannot make it 100 percent like what you have suggested.
Naik: The reason we are not getting any candidates is because there was a complete eyewash by Mr Parrikar under the advice of the Advocate General Atmaram Nadkarni to increase the qualification requirement for the Lokayukta who would occupy the office. From requiring just a retired high court judge, they said they would get the best Lokayukta possible and will require a Supreme Court judge. Obviously you are reducing the pool from which you can get a suitable person. It is just an excuse to leave that post empty. In this Assembly, if Mr Phaldessai can commit to the people of Goa that they will pass a bill to do at least two things – revert to High Court judge as the minimum qualification and to make the process of the appointment of the Lokayukta more transparent instead of leaving it in the hands of the ruling party.
Herald: Sunil, during the BJP’s tenure, a Lokayukta did come. He came and went away. They admit that things could have been done in a much better manner. Valmiki spoke about how you can increase the pool. Will the Congress come back to power primarily in the hope that people with think that communalism is a bigger scourge than corruption?
Kawthankar: That’s a very good question. We shouldn’t come back to power on the card of communalism. We should come on the cards of development and delivering our promises and transparency. As far as the Lokayukta and RTI are concerned, the Congress has done a lot. We should not restrict the anti-corruption crusade to only the Lokayukta. There are other institutions like the vigilance department, RTI and Anti-Corruption Bureau. Corruption is a very sensitive topic. Valmiki felt bad when I said Goans were very tolerant towards corruption. When he was in the US, I was fighting corruption over here. My party members and I know what it is. When I say Goans are very tolerant towards corruption, it is very easy to point a finger at me and say, “The Congress party is saying that Goans are corrupt”. You should understand what I am saying. If I said Goans were corrupt, I would have never fought for them. Corruption is not one-sided; it is from both sides. For example, a friend of mine, who is an opposition legislator, once told me that a person came to him for a job in exchange for money. This legislator says he doesn’t want any money. After some time, the same person comes to him and asks for money for medical expenses. The legislator refuses. For the next election, the same person was working against the legislator. Today the definition of performance for legislators has become distribution of goodies, sponsoring big tournaments. There a politicians who make blatant statements like we will raise the level of elections to an extent where the common man will not even dream of contesting the election.
Herald: Subhashbab, your reaction to this?
Phaldessai: I agree with what he said. I am in politics for the last 22 years. I have witnessed these kinds of situations in which everyday people come and sit at your door. However much help you give him, whatever you do, ultimately it is still not winning prospects for you. As you said, how you manage the last six months count.
Herald: If we go down to the panchayats of Goa, one a modest scale there will be around 30 percent of panchayats where, before any project is passed, there are deals being struck. Unless money is paid to the sarpanches, no project gets passed. Support or opposition to any project depends on the amount of money paid. I know panchayats which have opposed projects, and after five to six months, keep quiet and passes the project. What do you do about absolute corruption at the grassroots?
Phaldessai: Even if you are a panchayat member or councillor, they need to satisfy the people of their own segment. I don’t agree that corruption at the panchayat level is as high as you mentioned. There is a small extent of corruption because they need to give prizes for tournaments, etc.
Kawthankar: Whether you rob one rupee or 100 rupees – corruption is corruption.
Phaldessai: What is the qualification to become an MLA? You have money, you have muscle power, you belong to a certain religion, you belong to a certain caste – are these the qualifications? Where does efficiency rank? Where does your honesty rank? For the last many years you have been working for an NGO that has been delivering to the people without any expectations – that doesn’t count. The society is responsible for making the politicians corrupt.
Naik: I think the last five minutes of the discussion proves my point. Both Congress and BJP have agreed that there is no way out other than being a corrupt politician. They just blame the people. In Sunil’s story, he said the politician refused to give money for medical expenses, which is right. But why did the constituent come begging to the MLA? Because his hospital is not providing proper service? You’ve already paid for your school, hospital and sports ground, and yet we have made the system in such a way that you have to go begging to the MLA.
Kawthankar: In that example I gave, Valmiki has to understand the crux of what I’m trying to say. The crux is that the system has come to such an extent that we are becoming tolerant to these things. See, there is a well known story. You put a frog in a pot of hot water and the frog will immediately jump out. You keep a pot of room-temperature water, put the frog in that, and put a slow fire underneath. The frog will die a slow death. This is where we are heading. I’m am not afraid of what I am saying. I will stand by it.
Herald: If this is a slow fire and we are slowly dying, what is the solution? Do you see a silver lining in the clouds? How do we get out from here?
Phaldessai: We have a very difficult task ahead of us. Every person has to realize what the MLA can do. Should I go to the MLA for a job, or should I perform the best in the exams. If I don’t help him out, I don’t get any votes.
Herald: So Subhash is saying we are not just in a catch-22 situation, but also in a catch-22 to the multiples of 22 situation. Valmiki, what is your way out of this mess? If AAP comes to power with 25 MLAs tomorrow, what is your solution?
Naik: Goans have clearly seen that whether it is Congress or BJP, what they get is peanuts. If AAP was in power, you wouldn’t have to go to an MLA to get favours. Your hospitals, schools and grounds will be top-class. I agree with you that the grassroots have to be reformed a bit and there have to be more checks and balances in place. We are all for decentralization of power and the panchayats are important parts of what AAP’s system is going to look like. It is important that we clean it from the inside and put those checks and balances in place.
Kawthankar: I am very happy that Valmiki has not left a single opportunity to propagate his party. When we are discussion such a complex issue, we have to accept the facts. Before putting these checks and balances in place, we should try to change our mindset. We should be completely intolerant towards corruption, whether big or small. If people stop asking for illegal favours, automatically things will change.
Herald: People who are corrupt are the ones who don’t lose out. We need to get the underdogs, who unfortunately are the honest people, back into the system. I feel that there should be a complete overhaul and reform of the electoral system. People from Goa should also pledge to vote for absolutely clean candidates. They should also accept the fact that politicians are not here to pay for their children’s admissions, weddings and other favours. That expectation needs to go out. It’s a very long process. It may not happen in 2017, it may not even happen in 2022, but a fight is needed to cleanse the system and you need a group of people cutting across party lines. It’s an all-round reform process, and unfortunately, there are no easy answers or conclusions.
