GUPTA: India has already decided Narendra Modi is set to become the next PM of India repeating his mandate which is getting better. We have with us a very eminent and perhaps the best panel that we could have Advocate Cleofato Almeida Coutinho, Former Law Minister Ramakant Khalap, and Advocate Radharao Gracias the evergreen story teller and political maverick
GUPTA: Talk us through what you have seen today which the media has been calling as the tsunami
RADHARAO: Obviously, BJP has swept. In a democracy what the majority says matters whether we like it or not. So the BJP and more over it’s rather Modi and not BJP who gets another full term. Whether is for the better or worse we will know in the next five years. On the flip side I see some silver lining in the cloud, namely, the rout of Congress. To me as I have been saying throughout, this is an opportunity to build a strong centric alternative force because it looks like the Congress has panicked after 125 years and may be it’s an opportunity for us to build something different . Now it is also an eye opener to the Nehru-Gandhi family, in the interest of the party and the interest of the country, to take a break or make their final farewell from politics and leave Congress to others. There are so many in the party that can build something new, the entire country can look for something new altogether. This time we were forced to work for Congress simply because we disliked the BJP more. We don’t agree so many things, but now that Congress and Rahul have been defeated in Amethi, is a clear signal that he should get out.
GUPTA: Khalap, you have been stalwart in Goan politics being at the Centre and also worked very closely with the Gandhi family. Every time the Congress loses in elections it needs to introspect, but you cannot go on without any results. Tell us what you are feeling now with the results. Will these successive defeats lead to the erosion of party’s base and what do these results spell for Goa?
KHALAP: Let me look at it in the international perspective. In the last few years India has been split against Pakistan and Pakistan has been creating problems for India. That has been translated into Pakistan equals Muslims and India equals Hindus, so some sort of polarization has been achieved by whoever wanted it. This could be RSS, BJP, or international forces, because there are forces that would not like India to be a stable country. The problem they could create is communal tension. Congress had won Madya Pradesh, Rajasthan Mahaghatbandan was going so well in UP but the entire Hindi belt has consolidated with the BJP. Secondly, obviously this is a setback for Congress and they will definitely say we have to introspect. Now I am looking at the Indian scenario as whole; what I feel is whether Congress leader Rahul Gandhi should go as Radharao says, but this is a transitory period for India. In a sense the countrymen on the whole are not communalist, they are not. By and large the entire community wants to be friendly with everybody else. We are carrying the burden of caste, creed colour, which has come down to us from centuries perhaps million years. So India will bounce back.
GUPTA: Let me interrupt you. I want to repeat what you said is that they have done very well in the Hindi belt, but how do you account for the huge surge in Bengal as TMC was expected to completely sweep? You look at Assam, where BJP has done extremely well and they are sweeping Arunachal Pradesh Assembly
KHALAP: You have to take Assam, Arunachal Pradesh as one group …
GUPTA: And in Karnataka BJP has won all the seats, so my issue is that the point you are making of North India is not restricted to this
KHALAP: There are other factors. Karnataka last time had a fractured mandate. Now these two groups came together and there are minority parties supporting to form the government. Until yesterday’s voting date, there was bickering in the Congress. MLAs were openly fighting against their coalition partners so that is one reason. In West Bengal Mamata is in power for pretty long time. So you have to expect some sort of anti-incumbency.
GUPTA: But the reverse also played a part. One has to accept the fact that Mamata played a cleric card and Muslims’ card
KHALAP: See you just can’t take out one part and say that you are wrong in this. Both parties, both forces are working against each other. Assam we have known, West Bengal we have known and their citizens going on about non citizens and Rohingya issue coming there that’s why I said that national factors also could be to be looked into.
GUPTA: Cleofato Bab, the issue is, we can look at the national scenario, but do you also feel that the entire Congress cry or rather ‘Chowkidaar chor hai’, ultimately did not find resonance. If you remember Rajiv Gandhi lost the election because of Bofors on non corruption issues…. Why couldn’t the same thing stick and why did the ‘Chowkidaar chor hai’ slogan backfire so badly on the Congress?
CLEOFATO: See right or wrong the ‘Chowkidaar chor hai slogan’ did not work and their second biggest slogan of NYAY also did not go down at a level where people found it acceptable. So on those many economic and corruption issues there were no takers but I will take what bhai had said I don’t take this as much as Radharao has said this is the defeat of the Congress party. I would say this is the defeat of the very idea of India. Congress may have been opposed to BJP at the national level but what has been sold to the country is majoritarian authoritarianism and nothing more than that.
GUPTA:In this failure also lies the failure of the Congress but as a single largest party … an old party…. They could not have a prime ministerial candidate worth it
CLEOFATO: It is certainly their responsibility but you look at the type of individuals were there on the other side. Look at Mamata, look at Mayawati, if you take out one aside… none of the other regional players were prepared to accept Congress leadership. Because each one; had prime ministerial ambitions. And the whole question of brand Modi as against chaos… so it’s a number of factors. So their slogan did not work … the majoritarian narrative and at the same time no leader.
KHALAP: I will like to add this… Rahul Gandhi never said that he would like to be the Prime Minister of the country, but did it go down to the electorate in the bright way? And the Congress failed in it. He had said only when the elections are done they would decide on the Prime minister candidate.
RAJENDRA: When elections were declared if we see logistically they were well prepared with the opposition and they brought alliance together. All parties were brought together. If Congress had done the same don’t you think they would have got the strength?
KHALAP: We have to give credit to Congress in spite of being a big party, Congress managed to stand second in the country. In fact this should have been the message to the country. Although we got few in number we don’t rush to from government. What has happened in Goa is presidential system.
RAJENDRA: There should have been social engineering with regards to voting, which has failed in it like Bihar, UP, Even Karnataka.
KHALAP: Bihar and UP have really good tenure for years.
RAJENDRA: When it came to UP and Samajwadi and Bahujan Samaj, it was seen that they will sweep the election but have failed to do so. What do you have to say about that?
KHALAP: What I feel is there is a need to remain stable in the country. National forces do not want India to win and remain united. Countries such as America, China and even Russia.
RAJENDRA: When the elections were declared… Congress seemed to be in full victory mode … good results were expected … if we remove Francisco Sardinha and Babush (Panjim by-poll) … there was no huge difference
RADHARAO: See what has happened in Panjim is that it is not the Congress that has won but Babush, as an individual has won. There is no need to give credit to Congress. In Mandrem and Shiroda, seats, which were earlier won by Congress have now lost their deposit and they have not even come second so what does that show? It shows that Congress is failed to inspire public confidence. Now let us look at the national level. Earlier Congress used to carry everyone with it … it had Muslims, Jadavs, Hindus, backwards, forwards, Brahmins, Harijans etc and by and by it has started losing everything. You ask any Congressmen here, if you had to go to meet the Congress high command in Delhi… you had to wait for 10 days. So you have a family-based high command who has no interest. You are called there, you are shanted there… no one bothers there. So gradually, see if you join the Congress, you will also look at rising up in the leadership but they say you cannot rise and you can go up only this much and the rest result if for Nehru Gandhi family. Why should the people go behind such family? First thing is that Congress has to kick out the Gandhi family out. If they dont do that the party will stagnate and die. And perhaps it is better that this is the way as I look at it. The time has certainly come when Sonia has to say bye bye, now you run your affairs. I think that is the way Congress will be victorious. These people cannot inspire public confidence now it is Modi vs Rahul. Where has Rahul made any dent? Rahul may be the best opponent but people don’t want him. That much they have to realise that we are not wanted.
RAJENDRA: Here Congress while choosing the candidates in Mandrem for example, there were rumours that Ramakant would get the ticket. There was good environment but the ticket went to someone else. In Shiroda ,Mahadev Naik has no election air or mood but he was given the ticket. If there was a good candidate for Shiroda would there have been victory?
CLEOFATO: As far as Mandrem, is concerned if Bhai was there the results would have been different. Parsekar and others have worked for him and results would have been different. In Shiroda they thought anyway, Deepak Dhavalikar would withdraw the candidate but it did not work out. People backed Dhavalikar and stood second but… their declaration of candidate also came so late he was almost not to be seen. They should have withdrawn him unofficially because finally there were also Lok Sabha elections. Also they should have withdrawn (Mahadev ) unofficially and saw to it those 2000 votes which he got, that big chunk was transferred to Deepak because he lost by just 66 votes.
GUPTA: If we look at the two Lok Sabha naturally will go to south… first because that’s the only candle burning for the Congress right now. What is interesting is what I am going to ask all three of you. How significant will the results of the parliamentary seats be in showing the path of assembly position in the next assembly elections? In the sense that perhaps the factors that went into Sardinha’s victory. It could be the arms of the mining belts. It could be the entire coal pollution of Vasco, which could be the backlash. Unemployment could be the big issue; so many issues could have played a part. Overall this gruntle meant for the BJP was obviously was the larger issue. Then ofcourse, there are issues of tribals backwards in certain parts of Balli and Canacona. But the point is we don’t know what assembly wise segment is? But I will start with you Radharao Gracias… whether you feel once you analyse the assembly wise contours of the way things have happened. Give us a fair idea of the shifting kind of grounds swinging against the BJP and in favour of Congress limited to south Goa?
RADHARAO: What happens in South Goa can split in Salcete and non -Salcete. Now in Salcete the people could have voted for the Congress with great degree of reluctance. People like me, we give support for Congress and we have a problem with BJP, with Modi rather than the BJP because earlier when Vajpayee was with BJP we had no problem with him. Our problems are with Modi and Amit Shah so we felt it is not right thing so we supported Congress. The whole problem is Congress has rammed Sardinha down the throat of South Goa despite the fact that you are the worst possible candidate that could have been selected. When there were many others suggested by the party it shows that the Congress does not care for the people. That is where they have learnt the lesson their selection of candidate is too late in a day ad very poor seleciton they don’t take into account the local aspirations. The Congress still uses the old world Sardinha who had won his elections in 1977 … Luizinho had won his eleciton in 1980 .. Ravi Naik around the same time… all these fellows who are now controlling the Congress are 40 year in politics they have lost touch with reality. And it is time that these people should have been put to pasture. And Congress should have rejoined or reformed by bringing new and young blood they can do it but are refusing to do it……….
GUPTA: Luizinho Faleiro is already put to pasture and is grazing in the northeast.
RADHARAO: The whole problem for all this is comes down to is: ‘are they serious?’You see if Sardinha is winning it is because he got huge majorities in the traditional Congress seats. Like Nuvem Curtorim Benaulim about 12000 votes elsewhere they have not made many inroads…..
GUPTA: The issue is that out of the 20 odd assembly seats in South Goa ……. Suppose if we have a situation where Sardinha is ahead in about 12 to 13 segments does that mean that the Congress can potentially ride this strength?
RADHARAO: No, see Shiroda they the number of votes they have lost this time is more than the number of votes they lost last time, so in the weakest spot they have now become weaker. So to be in power they have to win seats
GUPTA: Ramakant whats your take on this?
KHALAP: After 2017 elections people have given clear mandate to Congress but this mandate was robbed and therefore there was real swing in Goa in favor of Congress. But when these parliamentary elections came and these by elections came due the demise of two MLAs while other two MLAs were robbed by BJP which gave an anti BJP wave that was created throughout Goa. But what did Congress do in that case and we failed to cash on it. Instead of putting one of our strong candidates in Shiroda and Mapusa went on a fishing spree. The only pond they could think was BJP so they brought a BJP and so they brought a BJP person in Shiroda. They brought a BJP person in Mapusa and they even brought a BJP person in Panjim and even in Mandrem they wanted to bring Laxmikant Parsekar. So the people starting to think what is all this? So if BJP is in power in Delhi, so why should we elect you in Goa so they chose BJP. The North Goa seat: the question, which was so put before the public was that a man from South Goa has been brought and put as a north Goa candidate. As if there was no candidate for North Goa. In a place like Mandrem till the last minute they could not choose or decide upon a candidate. My name was declared on 28th and on 29th, a meeting was held for no reason by the Congress leadership in Goa where all the aspiring candidates were told to work for the selected candidate Khalap and also an opportunity was given to rebel. Which appears to be some sort of conspiratorial method or intention to lose the seat and after 5 days, they select another candidate Babi Bagkar as candidate and that poor fellow did not know what to do. I went for canvassing for him in almost every place but we could feel the public pulse.
RAJENDRA: Many people said that Sudhir Kandolkar is a strong candidate and will survive but why BJP denied ticket to him?
RAMAKANT: To a big extend BJP ticket was helpful in gaining the seat. Firstly he is very young. If this Joshua does well in next two years probably he may repeat the history.
RADHARAO: For the first time I have noticed that when a BJP MLA being elected is asked a question in Konkani; answers in English
GUPTA:One quick question. Who gets into the cabinet as one cabinet berth is left? Do you think this will go to Subhash Shirodkar or they might take a chance and induct Joshua or get somebody like Michael lobo into the cabinet?
RAMAKANT: (Everyone laughs) This is the million dollar question ….
RADHARAO: I wonder what the deal was with Subhash … finally he was an elected member … . he is a senior member. Why should he join merely to be a MLA? I would think that the seat meant for Subhash.
GUPTA: If not Subhash who is your pick?
RAMAKANT : Michael is in the wings if you don’t give him the ministry anything may happen here. Whether they are in Delhi whether they are ruling in Delhi or not Michael is Michael.
RADHARAO: And you know what Michael can do? Michael is now the deputy speaker. Under anti-defection act Michael can resign from the party. Now mind you … the moment you resign from the party you become an independent MLA. After a few days he resigns from Deputy Speaker and remains as independent MLA
GUPTA: Will you please break it down for our viewers again ?
RADHARAO: Under the 10th schedule of the constitution the speaker and the deputy speaker upon being elected as speaker or deputy speaker.. they are the only two members of the house who can resign from the party on which they were elected without inviting disqualification so now that Michael Lobo is a deputy speaker if he wants to play any jugglery he can resign from the BJP tomorrow as member of the BJP and continue to be deputy speaker and Independent MLA at any subsequent point if he resigns he will continue to be an Independent MLA and he can’t be disqualified. Therefore if he wants to dribble around this is the way open for him.
CLEOFATO: Besides that Michael also has good hold of Bardez. May be I feel it’s is Michael turn so they will have to deprive Sopte
