The Sunday Round Table

Herald: I’ll start with Ashok Naik. What really is the problem with our urban bodies?

Naik: The thing is that Panjim Municipal Corporation (PMC) has a different rule than the other 13 municipalities. In PMC, the power is shared between the mayor and the commissioner, but more power goes to the commissioner. It is totally different in the municipalities. They give more power to the chairperson than the chief officer.

Herald: Surendra, is that the only problem? Are we constrained by just the acts and the laws? Or are we constrained by the way the government interferes in the affairs of the corporations and councils?

Furtado: There’s ample interference by the government. Since I was the Panjim mayor for two years, the ex-Chief Minister and Panjim MLA was scared of my schedule. He tried to use as much influence on the commissioner to see that nothing happened in CCP. But I managed to get around. I have nothing against the commissioner because his boss is the Chief Minister, who is the MLA of Panjim. He (commissioner) can get everything from him (CM); he can’t get anything from me. He swears to obey the CM’s orders. That’s why CCP’s work has been hampered.

Herald: You feel that even though councils and corporations are supposed to be autonomous, the issue is they are essentially run as extensions of political parties? How does it affect day-to-day functioning?

Furtado: Absolutely correct. As Ashok Naik said, the Goa Municipal Act has given enough powers to the chairperson, whereas with the CCP Act, 90 percent of powers are with the commissioner. The Chief Minister of the BJP-led government in 2002 or ’03 formed this corporation. It was like any other corporation from the government of Goa. They just lifted the Nagpur Act and cut-paste it into the CCP Act. The important thing is that the 74th Amendment is a must. Why is it not coming? In the 74th Amendment, all the powers are with the local cell bodies. Otherwise what is the meaning of local cell bodies? The same thing you will find in the zilla? What is the zilla? A big zero. It’s just to keep some people happy. These same zillas in Maharashtra and other places are powerful bodies. Why only in Goa? That’s why these zillas should not have been there. They’re overstepping the panchayat.

Herald: Advocate Gomes, you are at the forefront of the current situation in Margao. Tell us what led you to start this whole citizen’s movement.

Gomes: I’ve been living in Margao for the last 34 years. Over this period I’ve seen Margao has become stagnant – fixed in time. There’s been absolutely no development, except for the erection of tall buildings. It struck me that if I cannot be a politician, at least as a conscious citizen I could initiate some movement where people can be sensitized about their rights, what they can expect from councillors, how councillors have to be accountable and transparent towards the people. With this thought I went ahead. I spoke to some friends and all of them acknowledged and accepted this view of mine. I feel the urban bodies are not doing well because of the inefficiency of the councillors more than anything. It’s not the chief officer. Under the Municipalities Act, it is the chairperson who is the supreme authority. He directs, controls, supervises, unlike the Corporation Act. It is for each of the councillors to go to the wards. In Margao, once the councillor is elected, he hardly visits his ward. He hardly meets the people; there is a complete disconnect between them. That is where all the hampering starts. They concentrate only on which standard to pass, where they will get a cut, which building is being constructed, whose construction licences will be passed. Margao’s problems for the last many years have no solutions. It’s not only because the government interferes – they government is partially to be blamed for it. I feel it is the inefficiency or incompetency of the councillors.

Coutinho: I would like to differ on this matter. Number one: no doubt the Municipal Act spells all the powers on paper, but thereafter there are several circulars, notifications issued by the government from time to time, which has kept the elected councillor as a punching bag.

Herald: Can you give me one example of any circular which has diluted any of your powers?

Coutinho: Say tomorrow the councillors require some daily wage workers. Even if they take a resolution, the chief officer says you have to take the government’s permission for hiring the workers. I’ll cite one instance. There was an issue in Margao regarding discrepancy in assessment of tax. There is a set of 9,000 households within Margao, which were assessed on plinth area basis started by an engineer who was deputed by Dayanand Narvekar. Till today, these 9,000 premises are paying 20 percent extra tax compared to the other households in Margao. As chairperson I tried to bring it on par with other households, but it could not be done. The simple reason is that the chief officer is the executive power. He signs all the papers. Secondly, as far as the construction licences are concerned, not is a single construction file is routed through the elected council.

Herald: But it’s an elected body. Can’t the council step in and change it? If there are certain stumbling blocks, why do I have to live with those stumbling blocks? I’m sure an elected party can make enough noise or pass a resolution.

Coutinho: In fact, all 13 councils had formed a forum of councillors and made so many representations. It has been going on for the last 10 -15 years.

Herald: What I am saying is that during your term, the ruling party was completely with you at some point of time. Of course, differences happen later. I’m saying even in a situation where the council and the ruling party are on the same side, even then why can’t you get things done?

Coutinho: Just as Surendra said, when a politician of a higher rank gets insecurities – basically gets scared that a person who is lower than him will rise up, that is the time they want officers to see that they don’t get their projects done.

Naik: I’ll tell you one thing: you were not united. You should have united and fought with the chief officer and government. That is the problem. Another thing regarding what Surendra said about zillas being a ‘zero’. In my opinion, Zilla panchayats are not required at all in Goa.

Herald: I’ll come to Surendra because I want you to give an outsiders take on what happened in Margao. How do you view the ugly incident that happened in the new chairperson’s chamber the other day? The chairperson and chief officer almost came to blows. The CO directly accused the chairperson of engaging in corrupt activities and said he is going to install TV cameras, so on and so forth. It was not a very pretty sight. How do you look at this situation?

Furtado: It was really shocking. It does not befit the CO. He is not from Goa Civil Service. This chief officer comes from an IAS cadre. From the day you start your IAS career, you’re taught how to stand, how to sit, how to speak, what to wear on what occasion. It’s surprising that he acted like that. The CO must have acted on his own, or under pressure from the government. He can’t sit like that. I am not taking the side of the chief officer nor of the chairperson. The chairperson might be some roadside person who got the post. Just because he’s some roadside guy, doesn’t mean you treat him differently. He is elected by 18 people, so he is the chairperson. Respect the chair. Whatever he has done is not correct. Secondly, he spoke like a street-smart guy, “A hundred people like you will not be able to do anything to me. I am not corrupt.” I can’t say that I am not corrupt. A hundred people must say I am not corrupt. All occupancy certificates, trade and construction licences, birth and death certificates are signed by the chief officer or commissioner. If he feels the chairperson or the corporators want to make money and they are pressurizing him to sign, he should not sign. He should reject it. corporators, panchayat members or councillors are elected members. The public does come to them for small, silly things, and somewhere we have to bend the rules for them because after five years we have to go back to their house begging for votes. Then they will remember, “I came to your office, but you couldn’t do a small thing for me. Get out.” That bureaucrat is gone. Who gets the brunt of it is the fellow who has to ask for votes. Whatever the chief officer has done is not correct. I want to appeal through your channel that immediately the government should transfer this officer, because there is already bad blood. I don’t know whether Rajiv will agree with me or not, but for the smooth functioning you bring anybody else until matters are solved.

Herald: Advocate Gomes, you were in the forefront of the movement against relieving somebody like him. We don’t want this discussion to get down to only one personality, but at the end of the day Naveen Laxman is not just one officer. At the end of the day, he represents a new kind of functioning, which may be good at certain level, but it is also getting detrimental because of certain actions of his. As somebody who led the movement to defend him, or ensure an officer like that remains in Margao, what’s your take now?

Gomes: When we heard it we found it very disappointing. There has been some bad blood between this present chairperson and the chief officer, but that is something personal. As of now there have been no allegations of corruption directly or indirectly against the chairperson. Also, corruption cannot take place only there. Exchange of money can take place anywhere; it need not happen in the chairperson’s chamber. Saying “I’m going to install cameras. I’m going to catch you” makes no sense absolutely. We supported him and expected him to maintain decorum of the office. I agree with Surendra. In the end, it’s the CO who manages all the affairs. Everything has to be routed through the chief officer. There’s no question of corruption if the chief officer himself is clean. Let us say the chairperson takes money to pass somebody’s file. In the end, it is the chief officer who has to pass that file. Corruption cannot take place without the connivance of the chief officer.

Herald: We know that our urban bodies have a fair amount of corruption. On that we are not naïve; we understand that. So how is it happening? Is it all happening also because the chief officers have been compliant?

Gomes: Yes. That is the main reason we are supporting the chief officer. We found him honest. He was not going as per the dictates of the councillors. Otherwise, it has always been in my experience that the councillors bribe the chief officer. He is put under pressure, compulsion, all sort of pressure is brought on him to sign and pass whatever applications. This has been the conduct right throughout.

Herald: By that yardstick, Savio, then one would say then the case was keeping someone like him who is even stronger from becoming honest. At the end of the day, if we have to replace him as Surendra suggests, we need to get an honest chief officer there. Finding an honest officer is like finding a needle in a haystack.

Coutinho: No officer wants to come to Margao. The moment they hear they are posted to Margao, they use all sorts of pressure to cancel the order. I’ll just talk about that Margao incident. Immediately after the elections of the new chairperson, the presiding officer and the chief officer had gone to the chief officer’s chamber. What is told to me is that while they were preparing the minutes of the meeting or sealing the ballot papers, the chairperson was asking the chief officer to come his (chairperson’s) office. The CO was busy with his work. The moment the CO delayed coming, the chairperson wanted to go to the CO’s chamber. At that point the chief officer entered. Then the main argument about sitting and standing started.

Gomes: If the chief officer was called by the chairperson, he should have come. He could not have declined this.

Furtado: The moment a chairperson or mayor is elected, it is the duty of the commissioner or the chief officer to escort the chairperson or mayor to his cabin and give him a bouquet there. Then discussions are held. The corporators and councillors should not to take law into their hands.

Herald: In the last segment we’ll look at solutions. At the end of the day, Goa is looking for solutions from wise men like you. I’ll start with Ashokbab. Very briefly, tell us how urban bodies should be managed and what we need to do immediately to correct what’s going on.

Naik: Elected representatives should work together willingly for the development of the people, to improve the quality of life in the city. Work together and do something good for the people.

Herald: So the whole mantra is unity first. Surendrabab?

Furtado:  My mantra is also unity. That unity is only in the CCP. When a meeting takes place, we fight. But, the moment the meeting is over, we are all together.  I have noticed that in Vasco, Mapusa, Margao, they don’t talk to each other. Also, the 74th Amendment has to be there. When it comes, the MLA and ministers will be scared that they will be powerless.

Herald: Advocate Gomes, what is your mantra?

Gomes:  I feel the Municipalities Act has all the provisions. If it is correctly implemented, I feel the act will be sufficient to tackle all this. It appears that most of our councillors are part-time councillors or part-time social workers. We require persons who can dedicate all their time. Nobody has asked you to contest elections. You contest elections on your own with a claim or a promise that you will work for the people. Once you get elected, you’re busy running your own errands and you have hardly any time for public work. That is why most of the work does not get done. They also see how much money they can make on what project. The thought is not for welfare of the people. There are very few councillors in MMC who will dedicate their time and energy to work for the people. This is what is missing. I made a proposal to the Urban Development minister to incorporate something called ‘Ward Sabhas’, where a councillor goes and meets his people at least four times a year. Find out from the people what is missing in the ward, priority of work, beneficiaries. Try to involve the people. Here there is a total disconnect between the people and the elected representatives. Nobody is held responsible, there is no transparency. The councillors are having a field day.

Herald: Savio, what is the medicine you would prescribe?

Coutinho: Whenever the interest of the councillor is concerned, they see that they are united for any cause. When the door-to-door garbage collection system was to be implemented, even there we have seen so many differences, until it was actually implemented. The 74th Amendment has all the provisions. It was designed to make the local bodies autonomous, but it has not been implemented. Once it is, everything falls in place.

Herald: The panelists are actually saying the same thing. There are two takeaways. One is that there should be unity among elected representatives. There should be better co-ordination between elected representatives and chief officers. A good citizens’ movement also helps. The most important point here is that the 74th Amendment, which calls for a very active devolution of powers, needs to be implemented. The culprit here is also the government because the elected government of the State, whether it’s the BJP or Congress or any colour, doesn’t really want this devolution of powers because at the end of the day nobody wants to let go of power. Until and unless the government of the day lets go of their powers and allows local bodies to run in an autonomous and a proper manner, the real spirit of the 74th Amendment will never come into place. This is something which the citizens are really fighting for. Advocate Gomes and others are fighting for it in their respective towns. But, unless that happens, our urban bodies will never function the way they are supposed to.